Both Sides of the Fence

You present a false choice. No transit and hordes of homeless, or we get to keep our latte change in our pockets.

But, as for your latte analogy, however, I'll bite. Two hundred thousand people or so, buying three more lattes during the course of the year in Milwaukee County would have a phenomenal affect on the area economy. It would impact employment, bring in increase sales tax revenue, allow Starbucks owners to either invest more of their proceeds or take profit (on which they would also pay taxes). Then, with that money, they could CHOOSE to donate more to charity, improve their home (paying taxes on those improvements), buy a car (pay sales tax on that).

Meanwhile, what would become of Milwaukee County without that additional $9 million? (Less than $9 mil if you subtracted the unwarranted pay raise the supervisors gave themselves.)

You say Walker is a decent man. I agree. He proposed a budget that maintained the core services and spends much more than a BILLION dollars. That's enough to fund core services.

Milwaukee County, and Milwaukee in particular, is going to continue to lose it's middle class if taxes continue to skyrocket. The city will have gleaming 30 story condos, a fairly decent downtown, and then huge tracts of ghetto-like poverty. It won't just be 'one idea' conservatives fleeing the city and county. It will be middle class families of all political stripes, who believe at some point, enough is enough.

Finally, this tax hike isn't proposed in a vacuum. 7.5 percent more for schools (or 13 percent in Milw.) 3.8 percent more for the County. 10 percent more for MATC. More for MMSD.

Adds up to a heck of a lot more than a few cups of coffee.

At least when we were drinking beer (purely out of our duty to build the local economy), the corporate offices were here--and the brewery workers earned family supporting wages. An army of barristas won't be so fortunate.

Christine

I am not going to defend anything related to starbucks...but that 12 bucks buys a bag of groceries for a family just getting by.

Fraley brings up and excellent point on how it all adds up...City, County, School, MATC, MMSD, state property taxes....it all adds up into a big pile of money.  Have any of these organizations done anything to get their core costs under control?  The benefit packages are doing to our gov't entities what they are did to the American auto industry, but the car companies simply cannot raise their prices.  Unfortunately, we are made to believe that the number and pay of unionized gov't employees equals compassion for the needy.

If I was the guy making the choice of where I would put my beer corporate headquarters or any other business, I would put it in a place where the company and its workers where not punished with high taxes on every aspect of their lives.  Businesses when looking for a place to set up shop not only look at their tax burden, but also the tax burden of its employees.  Wisconsin has to compete with the world and taxing ourselves into oblivian only makes that harder.

Before you hit me "those with 300K homes" aren't just getting by....

A standard 2-story Tosa duplex with 2BR on each floor and about 1000 Sq feet on each floor are assessed around that price range.  They were about 150K in 2001 and very much affordable for a working class family.  Only a small percentage can be passed to a renter.  See where the pinch can come in when every part of the PT bill goes up.

Guy, what makes you think those organizations haven't cut their "core costs"?

The benefits packages are a real cost issue--except to those of us who have them, of course. I don't see improving the life of the community by taking away health and retirement benefits. Changing the health care system radically might help more than it hurts.

If you were the guy making the beer headquarters choice, you might also look for community/lifestyle factors like schools, parks, arts scene, and more. Whether Milwaukee has the right stuff to offer in that arena is the subject of much debate.

Guy, taxes are not a punishment, why would you say such a thing unless you hate your society?  Taxes are your patriotic duty.  And why exactly couldn't car companies raise their prices to provide benefits to their employees?  I thought it was a more or less free market economy?  It seems to me they could have done just that if they cared about local communities.

And holy cow, you're right, Fraley is a genius!  When you add a bunch of numbers together, you do in fact get a bigger number!!!  Even when those numbers are the costs of services provided by various organizations!  Excellent point indeed.  Give that man a Nobel prize for economics.

Of course, his failed attack on Christine's latte analogy puts that prize into question.  All those people buying lattes would indeed have an effect on the economy, albeit incredibly insignificant.  The economy would be vastly better off if that same money were spent on education and transit, which are long term investments that create better and more accessible jobs than "barristas."

Wow, quite the rhetoric you practice Mr. Dume.... you pursuaded me, I am now going to give every cent I have to the government in a show of patriotism.

Yes, lets have the Big 3 raise the price of their cars....I am sure Toyota and Honda wouldn't mind that at all.

So there is absolutely no waste, fraud or abuse in gov't that could be wrung out it before it comes back to its citizens with its hand out?  So everything is necessary and there are no redundancies?

Tine, I am all for equitable pay and benefits for employees...just not the excessive, out-of-reality packages that currently exist or having one more employee than necessary to get the job done.

*holds hands to forehead*

I'm sensing... a sort of... hold on I almost have it... it seems to be... yes... a hidden vein of sarcasm in your reply, Mr. Guy!

Thus I can only conclude that you will not actually give every cent to the government.

Nor should you.  But perhaps you could give them the amount they ask for in taxes, and be glad of the privilege of living in this great country?  You could even spend your free time doing some pro-bono consulting for the government, to help wring out waste, abuse, and redundancy, if you still feel the need for a display of patriotism...

Very good Mr. Dume....picking up on sarcasm is sometimes hard to do on a message board.

Sir Dume.  I can’t tell if you’re really asking a question about the demand curve, or if you are mocking those who are unfamiliar with the dismal science.

If you are serious, and would like someone to explain “why exactly couldn’t car companies raise their prices to provide benefits to their employees”, please allow me to offer guidance.

Here’s what you do.  Read up on the substitution effect which can be found in any economics entry level text book.  If still needed, I’ll try to explain it in seventeen syllables.

Oh, btw…wanna buy a car?

Guy, I'm not going to say "there's absolutely no(fat, waste, name your poison)" in government--or in business. But this budget cut things like effective alcohol and other drug abuse prevention and intervention, treatment for serious and persistent mental illness--programs that save a lot of money in the long run.

And some of the cuts crippled good and efficient programs by eliminating the guidance, information, and community supports people need to use those programs. To me, that's a much worse waste of money than the old pension issues--a problem that should be further along to being fixed by now.